time,name,content
2023-06-11 11:09:44.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Good morning.
2023-06-11 11:09:45.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Good morning, Robbie."
2023-06-11 11:09:48.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"Oh, that's good. Can you hear me okay?"
2023-06-11 11:09:48.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,How are you doing?
2023-06-11 11:09:52.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yes, I can."
2023-06-11 11:09:54.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"Interesting, I press answer on my phone by accident and so now I've got it both on my computer. I press the future on my computer. I got myself into the screen hang up on that one. Hopefully."
2023-06-11 11:10:09.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, so you're still on good. Yeah, no, I do, I."
2023-06-11 11:10:10.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:10:13.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah, so I wanted to continue our conversation from last time, unless there was something else you had on your mind, or wanted to discuss."
2023-06-11 11:10:20.9 PDT,Robby Butler,"No, I yeah, where we have pickup. How whatever read from the last conversation you want to pickup."
2023-06-11 11:10:30.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah, I think the issue is that you know we're fucking, I think we are. I'm trying to like I think last time I was framing things a bit and tagging mystic Lee in terms of my position is different than yours and I wanted to step back from that and okay, let's focus on the things that we agreed and then discuss how to get there. Well it's a bit more collaborative rather than combative."
2023-06-11 11:10:55.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, so there was your text and outline things with that before our conversation."
2023-06-11 11:11:01.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"That was, yeah, that was a summary that I put in the show notes from our last podcast."
2023-06-11 11:11:05.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, so that was after, after we talked, you sent me the distillation report things that you think we agreed about is that right? And then I did that yesterday morning. That's right. Okay, so I'm caught up on that order this thing. Yeah."
2023-06-11 11:11:13.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:11:18.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:11:20.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Okay. You know, the basic idea that was the issue in hasn't lot of downside but we have to move forward rather than lose that. I think we're kind of the, basically, great."
2023-06-11 11:11:30.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"You bought were you wrote, and I'm and Demick wake her up and I help with that was too close to being understood as intrinsically as in error virtually. So I'd like to, I'd like a word that says it is pretty widespread well not beyond consideration of trying to fix, like the monopolies the safety through the trust first thing legislature no one."
2023-06-11 11:11:55.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Welcome.
2023-06-11 11:12:00.5 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"To the water damage we need, right? And I think there, there are two interesting ambiguity. What's that interesting with all the typos, right? One is the distinction between endemic and intrinsic, right, and the other is the clean centralization and civilization, which is perhaps of related concepts. Is that he would say all centralization is actually the problem or it seems that that's what you were suggesting."
2023-06-11 11:12:03.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Yup.
2023-06-11 11:12:14.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:12:32.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"Well, yeah, I'm not seeing that civilization centralization is the problem but that, yeah, a patient environment that we've always certain it to that it's a beverages right? If you, if."
2023-06-11 11:12:48.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,So this is an interesting question. Yes.
2023-06-11 11:12:51.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:12:53.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"I'm actually, I'd like if, unless you're in a rush to get somewhere else. So the word and Demick, it's, I understand what you're saying. My concern is that if any Brian, if there's going to anybody or audience if we can find that word that is more popular now because then Demick, I don't think is used commonly enough for people to preferably understand what we mean by if that makes sense."
2023-06-11 11:12:58.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Mm-hmm.
2023-06-11 11:13:22.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Well, let me just find it here cause we don't have to spend a lot of time, you know, pushing the terminology right? But but, but I think we, yeah."
2023-06-11 11:13:26.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"Oh, I was just hoping, I was just hoping we, I was just hoping we could quickly come to simpler easier work but maybe we can't. So that's how I go on."
2023-06-11 11:13:39.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah, I think the more interesting was what I wanted to have is like, what exactly is the relationship between we'll see you soon centralization corruption and evil."
2023-06-11 11:13:55.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, and."
2023-06-11 11:13:55.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Because I think those are absolutely four very interesting words and concepts and there's a lot of subtlety a new on here there'll be useful to tease apart both to just understand where we currently stand and also think about what does it mean to move forward.
2023-06-11 11:14:13.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"So I just finished my point then on the earlier, we're what we used by doing instead of pandemic. We."
2023-06-11 11:14:21.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"So something different, so, you would argue that widespread rather, you know, so, the, and so there's some subtleties there, that we can certainly unpack right? So I don't, you know, I actually, meaning that, that's not widely and."
2023-06-11 11:14:40.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"Uh-huh and what, how would, how would you summarize the difference between me and then definitely are intrinsically?"
2023-06-11 11:14:50.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah, and, and, and getting this all fucked up like, this isn't a hard question but I want to discuss, it's like, it's a simple word if they concept I'm trying to grapple with and so, one of the worry about trying to confuse other people. Let's see, if you can at least, are you clear on what I'm saying? And we're and so I don't think that you have what is centralization even mean."
2023-06-11 11:14:56.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:15:02.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:15:05.9 PDT,Robby Butler,But.
2023-06-11 11:15:15.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:15:16.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Alright, so I had interested in experience with this morning is that we're trying to do a little bit of we did a bunch of cleaning and we have a three year old positive Labrador, the COVID puppy who was the toilet."
2023-06-11 11:15:31.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"And so for a long time he had, we had gate, sorry."
2023-06-11 11:15:34.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Broke up after notoriously. I didn't hear what.
2023-06-11 11:15:39.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"The Lee fond of chewing things up. He's a laboratory, he's like picking up in his mouth and then we get that he will find someplace and start chewing it up but we've got through several air pod and like that. So for a long time we had him send stuff. We had a simple gate which kept him in one part of the house."
2023-06-11 11:16:00.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"And then we decided we got an older little bit Valerie but okay, now we will give him we will not have that one central get that we keep close but that means if you have a house, if you have a room with them on the floor every individual person is responsible for closing the door of that room because he will get it and start doing upstack and things like that. So that's an interesting a picture of centralized versus distributed, right. Is that everyone just shared their own space and."
2023-06-11 11:16:10.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Mm-hmm.
2023-06-11 11:16:19.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:16:23.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Mm-hmm.
2023-06-11 11:16:34.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:16:36.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"The as opposed to having a central thing, we all agree this is the one thing that we put in place to stop the problem if you will."
2023-06-11 11:16:44.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:16:46.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"And you, and the failure modes are interesting like if you have your kids they're less responsible if you have a shared space like the office but no one person own then that's the place that you use to forget."
2023-06-11 11:17:01.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, okay."
2023-06-11 11:17:01.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"And this is what are you that this is where empires and centralization sort of came up together? Was that, is that okay? Like, beside before it's similar, similar in the afternoon. So for us, like, the policies and culture you know, it's not clear why you need them hires or centralization but if there is an external threat that is unpredictable."
2023-06-11 11:17:32.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Alright, good up an actual human response, sorry the, the natural human response is okay we just deal with the problem when it showed up, and then we just live our lives and then you have enough hours, I will know and people would have like temporary warlord but then they said you're actually we need to not just, you'll find them when they show up we need to prepare and train and build wall and you know, do all these things when there is no threat. So the one that shows up we're ready for it, right? And that is the idea of an empire with it. You know, a hold your class and ruling class and all these things and that I would argue was the job to be done imperial civilization, I guess there are, there. So, I guess the thing we're saying there are you know, using twenty these classification things that are like proto civilization."
2023-06-11 11:18:02.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Ten.
2023-06-11 11:18:30.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Like he goes with the Polynesian for the proto civilization, where there was a widespread shared culture. And no, but it didn't meet criteria for civilization which was a system where internal politics matter more than external events. That was kind of his definition of a civilization."
2023-06-11 11:18:49.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"If there's a level of complexity that you, sorry?"
2023-06-11 11:18:50.3 PDT,Robby Butler,See right.
2023-06-11 11:18:53.3 PDT,Robby Butler,I've been waiting for you to take a breath so I'm.
2023-06-11 11:18:57.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Oh, yeah, I'll probably take a breath."
2023-06-11 11:19:00.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"I'm having the experience of it seems like you're enjoying thinking things through and that's fine. You're leaving me behind because I have so many points which I would like to interject but you're, and I think it's like the experience my wife has with me that she plans at frustrating to talk or listen to me because I'm a minor logging so I'm discovering new thoughts and I'm enjoying that thrill and I'm happy to do that for you know, a place to process your thoughts but I'm also conscious of the fact that we're both trying to figure out."
2023-06-11 11:19:47.9 PDT,Robby Butler,"Live appropriately and with understanding toward our wines and so I thought I'd bring out, bring this out and say that if you wanna run ahead and just think you're smart and, and run that by me that's fine. If you want to interact you're going to have to go to a different page. If you want me to follow because I'm distracted by thoughts that I'm not having opportunity to express and a mild frustrate at."
2023-06-11 11:20:16.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Okay, oh yeah, okay. So, good. Thank you for sharing that. I apologize, my intent was to try to find some terms totally groundwork for conversation but if that's not working I will stop and you can ask your question course, make your comments."
2023-06-11 11:20:31.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"Well, we, I don't mind the goal of defining the term and that's the rush race to for you to speak them and to cover everything before I get a word in that makes sense, right?"
2023-06-11 11:20:47.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Okay. Fair enough. Yeah, let me just pause and catch my breath and you can reflect whatever you want to reflect."
2023-06-11 11:20:53.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:20:56.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Hi we're doing the final your flight thing or you're inviting me to talk.
2023-06-11 11:21:01.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"I remember, I'm just going to be quiet for a bit and then you can reply to me cause I feel like I was holding the bike. So I will pod."
2023-06-11 11:21:11.9 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, well, okay and I'm gonna, I'm getting a phone feel free to jump in any time because I want, I see you're doing but I think Jackie describes feeling like I do so this is can you for me to learn as well? Alright with that said, so you I brought up the word endemic leave versus a widespread and physically or a variety of options there are you wanting to go onto for other words civilization centralization were two of them and I, if I took time to think about it I could come up with the other two but they're probably at the top of here my."
2023-06-11 11:21:54.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Corruption and you've already fields for the record.
2023-06-11 11:21:55.1 PDT,Robby Butler,You.
2023-06-11 11:21:58.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"And you, I, you said that fast and that it didn't come through on my audio. So say that to again."
2023-06-11 11:22:04.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Corruption and evil.
2023-06-11 11:22:06.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"Oh, perfect! Okay, so three season gross enable civilization and centralization and so I'm still trying to go at a pace where you can interrupt any point so feel free. Yeah, the."
2023-06-11 11:22:22.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Great, thank you."
2023-06-11 11:22:27.2 PDT,Robby Butler,"The, let's see, I'm still in the back of my mind. I'm still pondering that how, what is a good word to describe cause you have it in before kinda settling on the word and Demick Lee, you were pushing the idea that civilization doesn't exist without corruption. I'm not sure if that's quite correct, there's something it seemed like close to that."
2023-06-11 11:23:00.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Right, and, and this is what I'm trying to tell you that there is some subtlety there that I'm having difficulty articulating, I'll just put a pin in that for now."
2023-06-11 11:23:01.1 PDT,Robby Butler,So I.
2023-06-11 11:23:07.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:23:08.9 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, alright. So what is the relationship is the question that we're not settled on correctly? Maybe not an agreement but we're not even sure probably and then the connection between April on central as Asian or so let's see civilization can centralize things some things. I'm not centralize other things. You don't have to have everything centralized to have civilization. Would you agree with that far?"
2023-06-11 11:23:45.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah. Sure, yes. And I wouldn't be able to claim that overtime civilization have become more DiCentral which is intro."
2023-06-11 11:23:50.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:23:56.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:23:58.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"They, K-A-A a place where that's not been true in general has been a food product to prove production in the US has gravitated toward confined animal feeding operation as the dominant supplier products from animals. Anyway, that'd be see that doesn't apply. But even in the case of say hot house tomatoes or, and vegetables that are grown in doors there's a move towards centralization and you know, the, it's the leak or the motivated that go and get things at farmers markets or that seek out food from small farmers and most of."
2023-06-11 11:24:46.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, if you drive to the Midwest or see miles and miles at every culture. We're very few houses. Right?"
2023-06-11 11:24:55.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"So, would you agree that centralization in food supply is fairly common?"
2023-06-11 11:25:00.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Well, I would say and I'll make the case. Is that in general oh, well, I'll make my stronger claim in general. The primary benefit of civilization. Is that it create economies of scale under centralization and some of those things are powerful enough that they can support decentralized networks on top of that central core."
2023-06-11 11:25:10.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:25:20.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:25:33.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"And that is a wonderful thing when that is possible. But my argument is precisely that, yeah, like, civilizations centralized, that's what they do and sometimes that centralization. Enables higher levels of decentralization on top of it."
2023-06-11 11:25:34.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:25:54.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"So, you know, we didn't have farmers markets when I was growing up. No. But, you know, and what I would argue that the price of basic stables got so low and the quality or they got so low that created this higher level a thing where, you know, your farmers markets or ganic heirloom and from my perspective, there is a much wider, so the data because we used to be like when I was wondering if there was still like family farms, well, there was a common thing and overtime, you know, various technological and economic incentive conspired to create the master family farm which was an overall profit to prices and arguably a corresponding dropping quality and that led to the organic movements and all these other movements to have more sort of."
2023-06-11 11:25:58.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:26:25.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:26:28.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:26:48.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"A diverse types of food and writing from a range of different producers. I'll get it sorted for patient is fairly common in this sort of, of all being location if you go from four to I spread more or less the gallon Terry and just that are fairly distributed to the centralized pillars and they started like without like a rain forest canopy with a bunch of diverse smaller boutique systems underneath."
2023-06-11 11:26:54.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:26:59.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Bye.
2023-06-11 11:27:22.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"So that but you know, and, and that's how I perceive the food system is this are these dial and then there's a lot of your duty diversity underneath it and that's kind of the model that of what I think it means to be a civilization for the natural forcing the drive at this the state called patient."
2023-06-11 11:27:35.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:27:44.9 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, so."
2023-06-11 11:27:49.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"So, I started into this conversation, looking at the example of food and the centralization of food. In relation to other things that are happening about without really focusing in the conversation on food. And some of the conclusions that I may have expressed may not generalize beyond the food, they may be more in the area."
2023-06-11 11:28:21.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"There, there are parts of what I've talked about that are totally related to food, I'm sure but alright, so what is a point of this conversation that you'd like to pick up and go further with this?"
2023-06-11 11:28:36.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Sure. So, well, what I would do and what's actually go about corruption versus evil."
2023-06-11 11:28:42.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, so down. So star trucks went because that somehow when you talk fast I started losing words here. I think it's probably my head."
2023-06-11 11:28:43.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Right.
2023-06-11 11:28:51.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Fine, and maybe this is good practice for me. Hello, down and smile."
2023-06-11 11:29:01.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, good."
2023-06-11 11:29:01.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"So, they speak, I, D. is that when you go before you have a civilization C4 something it's central. You have a very upscale efficient means of production and you tend to have a lot of scarcity of those items whether that military security, security and so one of the purposes of civilization is to achieve better production for central."
2023-06-11 11:29:15.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:29:37.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"Wait, let's see since we're, since we're kind of dealing with the process of our conversation as well let me show you down because you started by expressing payment and then building on it before I'd had a chance to think about and agreed to the statement. So I'm the second thinking about this."
2023-06-11 11:29:37.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,And that's.
2023-06-11 11:29:46.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Sure.
2023-06-11 11:29:58.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Okay, I was actually gonna answer the question I had like two more sentences. Hi, I might just the thoughts."
2023-06-11 11:30:03.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"Well, how about if you start this order over again? Because I'm district trying to recall the foundation that you're building on and I don't recall it. So, yeah, okay, go ahead."
2023-06-11 11:30:09.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:30:14.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:30:18.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Okay. Wait. Okay, I'll try to make it a similar to the first, okay, society become civilization to solve the problem of scaling the first point, the second one is the way they solve this by centralization."
2023-06-11 11:30:38.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"And that the very dynamic centralization that help them solve the scaling problem of scarcity eleven W. we do some level of corruption kind of basic three point and therefore calling them evil. I would argue with somewhat simplistic because it focuses on the cost of doing the thing and without necessarily looking at the benefits and so, that's basically my paper trying to explain to you like."
2023-06-11 11:30:55.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Alright.
2023-06-11 11:31:15.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"So, I'll talk to you."
2023-06-11 11:31:16.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:31:18.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"So that's the, that for me. It's not a helpful place to stop. I need to go through step by step. If I'm gonna follow, you can continue it and that was kind of a station. So if I know in advance that you're reviewing several points and we're going to go back and take them up one by one then I can just relax as you're going to the points as it is. My brain doesn't seem to have the capacity to keep in mind all three points at the same time as the depth that I want to think about them."
2023-06-11 11:31:25.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Sure.
2023-06-11 11:31:53.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah, and if I have four points I'd probably blow but yeah, and the first available, yes, more framing and summary and pre summarizing. I can see this was much easier especially when we have purely audio and no visual PowerPoint and what are we thinking as we go along. Yeah, I totally understand."
2023-06-11 11:31:53.9 PDT,Robby Butler,If that makes sense?
2023-06-11 11:32:06.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, yeah. Alright, so go back, let's go back to your first point or something about centralization is the response to scarcity or to kind of me, or."
2023-06-11 11:32:18.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"No, so, the first point the civilization arrive from society in response to some kind of scaling problems."
2023-06-11 11:32:29.3 PDT,Robby Butler,I see. Okay let me see if I can say that one more time and then I'll try and repeat it and then I can start on packet.
2023-06-11 11:32:35.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Sure, civilization arrives to society and response to some kind of scaling problem usually military security."
2023-06-11 11:32:46.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay. So centralization. Arrives arises in.
2023-06-11 11:32:51.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Civilization, I'm making the case for civilization first."
2023-06-11 11:32:55.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay. Sorry, sorry civilization not central civilization arises in response to, I think you did you say scarcity and then you went to military pressure."
2023-06-11 11:33:10.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Security. Oh, yeah, a scarcity problem. There's an absence of a, of a public good of interest and location. Right, and which is usually reflected in the around some level of insecurity the scarcity of a public good creeping security 201 point."
2023-06-11 11:33:14.3 PDT,Robby Butler,That's.
2023-06-11 11:33:17.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:33:20.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:33:27.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:33:31.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Alright.
2023-06-11 11:33:33.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"So this is, this is you know if you, if you if you wanna communicate giving the other person actually to repeat narrow words or try and even repeat your words is a tool that I'm practicing. So and I'm running back with that. So civilization arises in response to a, a perceived to threat or scarcity was there more to it that I cover that?"
2023-06-11 11:33:48.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:34:04.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,I'm sure that we can stop there. That's pretty good.
2023-06-11 11:34:08.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, let me say it again. Civilization arises in response to scarcity or threat."
2023-06-11 11:34:16.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Sure.
2023-06-11 11:34:17.9 PDT,Robby Butler,"We're good on that. Okay, next point."
2023-06-11 11:34:22.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"I think, I think I'm very comfortable with that summary and confusion. What point now I can leave the rest and focus on that."
2023-06-11 11:34:23.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,I.
2023-06-11 11:34:30.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Okay, good. That's one is that the primary way but in response to that scarcity is increasing productivity through centralization."
2023-06-11 11:34:47.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"The primary rain civilization response to the further scarcity is to central location, that makes sense."
2023-06-11 11:34:56.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"In order to improve productivity, yeah."
2023-06-11 11:34:59.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"Alright, for, okay, or to be or raise conference against the threat, if the thread is there, yeah. If you, if it's responding the scarcity it's production, if it's responding to an external threat some other word, other production is probably appropriate that yeah."
2023-06-11 11:35:01.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:35:07.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:35:16.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah me, to me that will do a threat imply a lack of something a military threat implies on lack of sufficient security it's three threatening security and scarcity are all sort of correlated or roughly interchangeable."
2023-06-11 11:35:27.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, I see."
2023-06-11 11:35:32.9 PDT,Robby Butler,"Alright, I can go with it, okay, so, this is like, you know when we share a feeling and we repeat that reflect back what we're hearing, right? So now we're feeding back what I'm hearing. So yeah, so the scarcity rep civilizations response. Yeah. Centralization to improve productivity."
2023-06-11 11:35:43.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:35:46.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:35:58.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"I'm tracking my traffic. You feel like, I'm tracking with you. Okay, good."
2023-06-11 11:35:58.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Alright, yeah. Right."
2023-06-11 11:36:03.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Right, and the very first point. Oh."
2023-06-11 11:36:08.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Yup. Next point. Yup.
2023-06-11 11:36:10.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"The nature of centralization is what enables corruption is there, there is no central system. Then corruption. Literally doesn't exist. There's nothing to corrupt."
2023-06-11 11:36:25.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, I think so. If there is no centralization there's nothing to corrupt so centralization creates the opportunity for us."
2023-06-11 11:36:36.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"And because we live in right and I guess the and this is what I mean by corruption is endemic. Is it a, a world have been perfect communication and perfect you will be in any system that can fail your Murphy block is that every system that exist at a certain device the criteria and as you're in that."
2023-06-11 11:36:37.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Am I back?
2023-06-11 11:36:46.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:36:56.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:37:12.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,That is important probably by profit isn't Dennis in the contacts is that it is enabled but it won't happen at some level. And the best you can hope for is to keep it at a manageable level.
2023-06-11 11:37:22.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:37:35.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"So, it's inevitable that there's election fraud, the question is how expensive it is."
2023-06-11 11:37:42.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Once you have a lesson before, there was no one lesson, right."
2023-06-11 11:37:47.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, yup."
2023-06-11 11:37:49.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Wait, before you had no money, you have no counterfeiting, you would, you know why, right? Every system failure mode."
2023-06-11 11:37:54.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:38:02.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Every I missed call afterwards system. What?
2023-06-11 11:38:05.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Every system has failure mode.
2023-06-11 11:38:09.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay. Yup. Alright.
2023-06-11 11:38:11.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"And corruption is an interesting word because it's sort of being the way I'm using it as deviation from the photonics, ideal of what the system was supposed to do, intended to do."
2023-06-11 11:38:24.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, well yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So I think we're."
2023-06-11 11:38:25.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Right.
2023-06-11 11:38:30.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"So, my point was that, yeah. Okay."
2023-06-11 11:38:34.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yes, sir. Yeah, I think we're so far together. I have a, a flight from this, going behind, you have another thought. So we can go either direction at this point, yeah."
2023-06-11 11:38:34.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Right.
2023-06-11 11:38:45.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Let me just make my fourth point which hopefully it's fairly simple and then I can turn the Mike over to you.
2023-06-11 11:38:50.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"Alright, good."
2023-06-11 11:38:51.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Is that corruption relative to its original intent. It's a, I, it's sort of a punch order term but it's not intended to necessarily like in the, in the abstract size system it is morally neutral because you know, one person corruption of the system is another person, you know, creative innovation."
2023-06-11 11:39:21.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Like when people, you know have their proprietary software to do more interesting things that's a quarter like you know put crop, is that across the system. Is that legal behavior or is that user privacy? Is that user, right, and is that a signing email to things at this level? It is. I would argue premature."
2023-06-11 11:39:22.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:39:36.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:39:45.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"You have to have some other scope and in fact, I would argue it's actually quite hard to define evil. Nothing impossible I think it is surprisingly difficult to eagle without implicitly assuming a certain boundary to your system."
2023-06-11 11:39:46.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:40:08.9 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, that's the limit."
2023-06-11 11:40:10.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"What a question is good, bad or indifferent depends on your perspective a good evil or that you are choosing to operate from that was my last point."
2023-06-11 11:40:22.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay. Well, okay, so, the last point that I heard was to try to define evil without a boundary and that is requiring thought which maybe on my part to evaluate which made."
2023-06-11 11:40:39.5 PDT,Robby Butler,It meant to be me for your fourth point. So you want to state your full name again. Is that is that the.
2023-06-11 11:40:46.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Different point is that be right?
2023-06-11 11:40:48.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Reason what I'm reading my thoughts.
2023-06-11 11:40:55.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"I'm not here. Okay, now I'm back. I can hear you."
2023-06-11 11:40:55.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Right.
2023-06-11 11:40:58.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah, can you hear me now? Yeah, I bet somebody that's to, yeah, so the point was that once you have a centralized system you will have corruption at some level and that wasn't, that corruption is equal or not depends on other consideration. I guess it's the short way of putting it."
2023-06-11 11:41:17.9 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, so when you have a system, once he has a system or centralization you'll have some corruption and whether it's Eli not depends on other fact we're consideration."
2023-06-11 11:41:30.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:41:32.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"Alright, so yesterday I learned about a YouTube channel or something unintended consequences. I think it's I can probably find that quick but anyway the they talked to, it's just a channel describing good intention that went wrong and the first two is a country that paid farmers to plant a new trees and what happened was the treat the farmers cut down mature trees to make room to plan to and ended up DeForest in 220 square miles which is the opposite of the direction that guy was trying to go and sign up for a minute, right? So I would describe that, I would describe that as an unintended consequence, I wouldn't describe it to a human intentional centralized human corruption."
2023-06-11 11:41:33.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:42:30.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"But there is the dark side of the human card that needs money or wants money. Agreed. She said they're loving money or agreed all kinds of eve, I don't know if that really helpful to your point."
2023-06-11 11:42:45.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Well, let, who I would frame it differently, okay. Is that, let me see if I can make a contract on this. It's the same one so people respond to incentive. Is that a safe statement to make?"
2023-06-11 11:42:49.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Alright.
2023-06-11 11:43:05.3 PDT,Robby Butler,People respond to what?
2023-06-11 11:43:06.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,We're incentives.
2023-06-11 11:43:09.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"Instead, yeah, yeah, incentive side."
2023-06-11 11:43:11.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Right, and so, and so, it doesn't mean that we're fully determined by incentive but we respond to them. And therefore when we build a system we have you know, the people who got the system hadn't sent to the people who use the system haven't sent it and a well design system. Understand the incentive and the desired goal and align them well, and I poorly design system does them bathroom."
2023-06-11 11:43:18.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:43:29.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:43:32.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:43:41.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:43:45.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:43:46.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Not at this time. System can't even ask those.
2023-06-11 11:43:51.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Correct.
2023-06-11 11:43:51.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"That's kind of my point, right? No system, there's no clear goal you can say, what do you missed it or not? Thanks. You have a goal, once you talk about this deal, the law, the laws, the thing that describes, you know, how this thing exist, and if there is a law, there is no sense, you know, farmers just pay what they want to talk with, you have a law then you have to worry about. You know, what are the consequences of that? What are the positive consequences, negative consequences intended, unintended anticipated on anticipated?"
2023-06-11 11:44:09.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:44:12.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:44:28.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:44:30.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,All those questions become relevant once you have a system and then you can start asking these hard questions and you often get very embarrassing answer.
2023-06-11 11:44:33.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Yup.
2023-06-11 11:44:38.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, yeah."
2023-06-11 11:44:41.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, so."
2023-06-11 11:44:42.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"And the, there's, there's, there's another. Okay, sorry, you can talk about the point but it's minor."
2023-06-11 11:44:46.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"Well, I didn't say if you at each, each time you make point without stuff and asked me to tell you what I'm hearing you say you'll see, you'll see how far I am or how close I am actually understanding what you're saying."
2023-06-11 11:45:03.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Well that's the thing sir.
2023-06-11 11:45:07.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Correct, so you made a point about the forestry and then I made a counter framing. I'm curious what you heard and how you felt."
2023-06-11 11:45:14.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, so if I understood your point which I think I did that any system, yeah, inherently has incentives or also disincentive and how well poorly their design influencers but doesn't maybe determine or control how well the system works. That's a part is that row roll it relates to what you were saying."
2023-06-11 11:45:40.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah, but more likely they haven't sent us an incentive relative to an intense."
2023-06-11 11:45:46.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay. So if the system is intended.
2023-06-11 11:45:48.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Alright, and until you know what the intent is, you don't know which incentives are aligned or miss Aline."
2023-06-11 11:45:57.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"So then my mind turn to the question of the customer tuition and the quote that I heard someone recently from Jefferson, that our system permit depends on morally upright people."
2023-06-11 11:46:08.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Mm-hmm.
2023-06-11 11:46:14.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Yes.
2023-06-11 11:46:16.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"Alright, so let's see that. The intent is to, I'm just gonna take a stab to preserve the freedoms that the early settlers in this country valued freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom or whatever are you okay with that premium?"
2023-06-11 11:46:39.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Print them on slaves kinda throw that one in there now.
2023-06-11 11:46:42.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"I'm sorry, what was it? What did you say? Oh, yeah. Yeah."
2023-06-11 11:46:44.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Freedom to own slave, freedom to own place and I thought that one in there now."
2023-06-11 11:46:50.9 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, that'd be some of them are self is that was Supreet them that they."
2023-06-11 11:46:55.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"In Jefferson and Boston, particular, right? So, okay, but, yeah, what, there were freedom that certain members of the society enjoyed and one framing, one interpretation of the constitution is that those freedom that they enjoyed for the reason, they wanted to preserve the constitution. Sure, okay."
2023-06-11 11:47:03.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:47:10.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:47:13.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"No, I, it doesn't seem to me that the constitution insurance slavery is something that the constitution was trying to preserve but it may have been among the freedom that they expected to preserve."
2023-06-11 11:47:26.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"It wasn't exclusive. Yeah, well, maybe it was especially condoned by the constitution just so we're clear on the facts. Alright, so three fifth of other person thing for the southern representation wasn't implicit acknowledgement or constitute a slavery."
2023-06-11 11:47:34.1 PDT,Robby Butler,So.
2023-06-11 11:47:41.9 PDT,Robby Butler,So you're talking fast enough it's not coming through. Can you say it again to catch it?
2023-06-11 11:47:45.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Sorry, yeah, it's probably too much of a tangent. But as the point of fact, the constitution implicitly condoned slavery and how it counted the black populate."
2023-06-11 11:47:52.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:48:01.7 PDT,Robby Butler,The constitution counted or reference the black propagation.
2023-06-11 11:48:04.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yes, it said, it said three fifth of other persons are counted towards representation and the house of representatives."
2023-06-11 11:48:13.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"So, other person would be slaves. Alright, it did. Oh, awesome."
2023-06-11 11:48:17.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yes, that's what I meant there, and yeah, and to your point yeah."
2023-06-11 11:48:23.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Women also included and then the women were part where.
2023-06-11 11:48:27.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"No, women wondering when our citizen, so like, the population for purpose and patients did not this thing was on the basis for property gender or age, but slaves are in this weird separate category that was indirectly alluded to. But my point was rather that, yeah, yeah."
2023-06-11 11:48:35.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:48:41.9 PDT,Robby Butler,And they?
2023-06-11 11:48:44.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"And that was a different service I, that's fine. I just wanted to clear cause I will receive that, okay. Alright. So now back to our main points I'll try to call what it was, that their incentives in any system. Which support or may not support the $10 a better value waiting outcome. It's important to understand the attend to the system."
2023-06-11 11:48:47.4 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."
2023-06-11 11:48:57.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:49:10.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Correct.
2023-06-11 11:49:16.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Am I tracking with you?
2023-06-11 11:49:16.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Wait, yeah, and that allows you to detect corruption. What I'm saying, it's insufficient to define evil."
2023-06-11 11:49:28.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, so corruption which violates the intent of the system about our corruption is the violation of the intense and the system is that what how we're defined instruction."
2023-06-11 11:49:33.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Mm-hmm.
2023-06-11 11:49:39.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah, I think so. That's probably a more precise way of putting what I was thinking."
2023-06-11 11:49:43.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"Okay, but that evil whether that corruption is evil or not is involved other factors that we haven't yet a concentrated focus on my tracking. Alright, Kerianne, Terry Ford."
2023-06-11 11:49:55.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:50:01.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah, let me let me do the pieces I wanted to discuss with you, I don't have any other points to make beyond that. I just wanted to try and get that clear so we have some common terminology, civilization centralization corruption and evil and they have like five minutes so that'd be time to open up a new thing. But I'm curious how you feel about this and about my specific about my efforts to try and distance this analysis from the term evil."
2023-06-11 11:50:07.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:50:16.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Alright.
2023-06-11 11:50:30.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"Well, I didn't receive it as an attempting to distance it from the from April. I'm happy to you know, if that's if that's your purpose, that's fine. How, what I thought was good about working on the dynamics of a power and why I sometimes feel left out and wash and interaction with you and the benefit that I may experience as I carry that awareness into my interactions with my wife. And maybe hopeful that somehow this will be a value to you and your wife."
2023-06-11 11:50:52.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Oh.
2023-06-11 11:51:06.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Your interactions. So those are some feelings I.
2023-06-11 11:51:09.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Yeah, okay. Okay. I definitely appreciate your pushing back and clarifying what you were dealing and wondering about that was helpful. I think that certainly you know this is a very basically awkward process to try to articulate very difficult concepts or audio other than in written form. So I appreciate your walk through that. And I, I'm grateful to the, I think I'm fixing through. I mean the my main goal for the conversation is when I called, like the flora scope trying to figure out what parts are hard and which parts are soft and where is it any confusion. And I feel like we've at least clarified our terminology and so it'll be easier to have conversations or substance without getting derailed."
2023-06-11 11:51:17.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:51:27.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:51:44.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:51:51.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Okay.
2023-06-11 11:51:56.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:51:57.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Papa system remains to be seen but I'm just encouraged. Yeah, and you know, the, the punchline is, this is what I felt like on our previous call you said, well, here's all these examples a centralization creating corruption and it's like, okay, yes, that is expected sometimes it's kind of a feature because then you have systems that are capable of being corrupted and the thing I said that there was like, and this is a hard challenge of reform is that, if you both understand the purpose of the system. Like, you're talking about the most part are terrier industrial complex."
2023-06-11 11:52:00.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:52:21.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:52:27.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:52:37.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:52:37.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Which is right with?
2023-06-11 11:52:42.0 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"It's supposed to work for our podcast. Talking about the history of Lockheed Martin kind of be moaning how bloated and inefficient the a defense industry is. On the other hand, it's like, you know, but what's the alternative like given the incentive in the structure of the system, you know, is it better to have a bloated and assistant system that's still function forward to just get rid of the whole thing and to be defenseless I feel that the ballot philosophical question to ask but you know, there is, there, there is at least a given level of consciousness. Let's call it or awareness there is a trade off between robustness."
2023-06-11 11:52:59.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:53:08.3 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:53:19.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Mm-hmm.
2023-06-11 11:53:28.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,And efficient.
2023-06-11 11:53:30.5 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:53:30.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Is the more is that one person's waste, there's another person slack and the it's not to say that while you're just stuck with it, no is it, is it says that when you, if you want to improve thing probably what is the, I'm sorry, you cannot solve a problem as a safe level of awareness or consciousness that created the problem."
2023-06-11 11:53:37.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Right.
2023-06-11 11:53:55.7 PDT,Robby Butler,"Alright, yup, yup, seeing your consciousness area, I need to even $1,140 for somewhere so I should check the time. Oh, well, I'm, like I."
2023-06-11 11:53:58.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"And I think, yeah."
2023-06-11 11:54:04.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"$50 you said, you said about fifteen minutes ago we should stop now."
2023-06-11 11:54:10.1 PDT,Robby Butler,"Well, it's a little flexible but, and you said you need five minutes so I'll let, close with where you can create."
2023-06-11 11:54:16.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Damn.
2023-06-11 11:54:18.6 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Well, no. Yeah, I think that's the question there's like, we want to do better. What is the POS or what is the might wanna and I think we're gonna have to, I think we would probably agree on that at least at a high level and what's that? It will be a great Popick for next time perhaps. Alright, thank you for Robbie, thank you for his patients and his stuff awareness. Dialogues with me, translate integrator self awareness and emotional intelligence on our parts as we deal with each other and are wide filtering and cry with our heart is for the mind of Christ, for the heart of Christ, for the life of price to flow through us to our families, to the systems, we are a part of the systems, we."
2023-06-11 11:54:26.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:54:30.5 PDT,Robby Butler,"Yeah, yup."
2023-06-11 11:54:35.9 PDT,Robby Butler,Later today?
2023-06-11 11:54:55.7 PDT,Robby Butler,Yeah.
2023-06-11 11:55:02.8 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,Told them cause we see them as being in the muscle to Florida soon and your full name and why don't we just cry out to that you would use us and work through us to help us be a part of your great redemption assets in state.
2023-06-11 11:55:07.1 PDT,Robby Butler,Uh-huh.
2023-06-11 11:55:17.3 PDT,Robby Butler,"Alright, let's see."
2023-06-11 11:55:19.2 PDT,Ernest Prabhakar,"Alright, that was be bye."