# Self Emptying

You
Good morning

Robby Butler
This call will be recorded

You
All right, yes

Robby Butler
Recordings it means offset by slightly

You
That's what the pros do is that they get to recordings from both ends and stitch together so you get native audio which probably is relatively trivial today although

Robby Butler
Right

You
Getting it out of notes is excruciatingly painful

Robby Butler
Yeah, yeah, did you have you found a reliable way to do that or

You
Cry 10 times

Robby Butler
Oh, OK all right I am. I'm good. I'm good at that. I am. I am part of my personality as I keep something until it works.

You
Interesting question is is how do you decide when to stop?

Robby Butler
Why would you stop?

You
You've heard the definition of insanity, right?

Robby Butler
Yeah, when the next thing comes up and all I am

You
OK

Robby Butler
I'm in a state. I was just talking with a friend this morning about measuring trust. Pursuing trusting the Lord and that measuring that and how he treasures our trust and I am when I starred in the ministry. I read Hudson Taylor's biography and decided I wanted that experience of seeing that God could provide without me being responsible for it and after a year and a half he said OK I didn't call you that let's do something different, but it was a marvelous experience and now I'm in a stage where I feel and maybe he hasn't let me into this, but I am just exploring everything that I can. Trust him with rather than trying to like you know the initiative that I used to take to schedule time to make time together trusting that when he wants me to communicator connect with somebody, he'll either prompt me or them, but I don't have to go hunting for it so this friend I just talked with amazing conversation after you know it's been six months Six months ago, he felt like the Lord clearly told him he was gonna die this year and he's been walking through that and just last Sunday, the Lord Further communicated that this was a season he was learning through them, but what he's leading into as in resurrection life that's lived out for many more years here eternity

You
Wow

Robby Butler
Beautiful, amazing conversation that I couldn't have scheduled or planned or predicted, but in the Lord's timing, he was just on my mind this morning So I'm I'm letting go of trying to make things happen and trusting that what the Lord wants to happen he can prompt and lead me into and invite me into it and I am sorry cause I don't remember even how I got onto this tangent except it's very much in my mind

You
Yeah, I know it's It's good and definitely God telling me that he's in control of my calendar in my schedule. It is definitely a theme but what is my goals for this meeting is to notice what I'm typing emotions And I definitely felt emotion at the beginning so let me just take a moment to reflect on that and see if I can find

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
language and if this is the right time to bring it up

Robby Butler
Yeah, good

You
So the trigger was when you went into your discussion of When you first came to the Lord, you wrote Hudson Taylor you went through this experience of trusting God

Robby Butler
Right

You
And I felt like I was watching a documentary Right that and again this is just a feeling it's not there's

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
judgment associate with that, but I'm trying to particularly a feeling right is that is the feeling of

Robby Butler
Right, right yeah

You
being coughed at versus talked to if that makes

Robby Butler
Ha ha, OK

You
sense and that someone's reading from a script

Robby Butler
Right

You
And I don't know exactly why I feel that But maybe that would be A thing to ask the Lord, what does he want us to know about this?

Robby Butler
Yeah,

You
Yeah, let's just take a minute

Robby Butler
yeah

You
I think I'm ready Do you wanna go first or second?

Robby Butler
You go first

You
OK, so I'll just stream is not just what I heard so I heard Robbie really wants to connect, but he lacks the word the words and what I was saying most of the time when people lack the words is because they lack the vocabulary And Robbie doesn't lack the vocabulary he lacks on text Or That's why I heard I'm not sure what that means and then the reason I lack of grace is because I idolize words

Robby Butler
OK, I'm not I think I heard all the words and I understood all the words it's not warming into anything for me meaningful what to do or what to know from that

You
From what I said

Robby Butler
Yeah, so when you go back to, if we can what you said about me, I want to connect. Yes I connect with that wanting to connect. I think you said that I lack the words And I'm not with the words are the Place of connection although that's what we have over the phone so I'm not bumping on that I'm not I'm not sure what what that means to you or to to me or maybe we don't need to know right now we can just leave that for the Lord to clarify. Is there anything more you wanna say about that?

You
Don't that was good we can come back to this later. I'm curious what if anything you heard

Robby Butler
Well, my assistant was a freedom. You know I've been through a season of some years ago my wife and daughters. Sat me down and said you basically talk too much at least that's what I heard. I don't know if they were trying to say, but I monopolizers and I don't listen to what others are saying though I've been in . Long season enough and have self monitoring and. Like to speak less and listen more, James talks about mom. I feel like I've aware and part of that was recognizing that my speech was. Drive by Trying to make things happen or help people change or whatever And as far as I can tell, I've pretty much let go of that Of just not reasoning out, I'm trying to My interaction used to be Verbal processing, externally, and being excited about what I learned about what I'm saying new thoughts come to me is talking but Other part of that, and talking to with difficult emotions and conversations with others which I wasn't feeling or experiencing it all with you, we started, but that I tend to rehearse in my mind beforehand what I want to say to try and make the conversation go away, but I think it should go all that I feel like I've been freed up on that just to be myself And so I felt like I didn't feel any judgment or condemnation from the murder correction about what I shared but since that maybe it wasn't you know maybe I was. There were some since it was our place, but he was roughing. It said that we could have this conversation so that you and I can both learn from my interaction that produced this emotional no response for you. So that's a long winded

You
Oh, that's a good. I mean Tyson to this idea of what I saw the right mistake. It's like that,

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
but this is not that this was perfect, but it was perfectly timed.

Robby Butler
Yeah, yeah

You
And you know that the one thing I think I took from that actually is this idea of death and resurrection And being

Robby Butler
Again

You
yourself

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
And what does that mean and the One phrase you said that I found very vocative. You talked about reoccurs what you were going to say before you said it. Right, which is kind of like a that's almost the definition of a script

Robby Butler
Yeah, yeah so I used to do that a lot. I think I'm pretty late when I was anticipating a tense or uncomfortable

You
Right

Robby Butler
discussion

You
Right, let me just take a moment on that Right One of the things that I've been grappling with a lot is how to be Emotionally present And detention of And there's two tensions that I feel with that one is if I'm fully emotionally present then I lose sight of the larger contact of my goals or values, and I have this fear of being sucked into other people's worldview And losing myself and that's cause of my own emotional damage and backstory and trauma, both the fear and the reality or tied up with that dynamic

Robby Butler
Right

You
But the stuck in fear wants to give me a moment is That if I am my true self, I will it is it's it's Reframe the first one so the first one is losing my values and intent. The second is. Hurting other people, which is both a genuine concern for them and a loss of status from you know ruffling feathers And The Stepping outside of myself to rehearse something, I think that was a good friend. It's because we feel there is a threat. And one of the fascinating things I've been trying to step into in the last week or two is where is The most important thing we can do is precisely the thing that all of our habits and our instincts and our brain are telling us is a horrible thing to do Right is that it is you know in order to survive? We must not do these things and therefore we must do them because our goal is no longer to survive.

Robby Butler
I was so I am having trouble absorbing. Maybe that's the word.

You
Well, that's fine. I was rambling a bit. Let me try and try to make a try and make it more precise. Or do you want more time to process it yourself?

Robby Butler
No, no if you would repeat, that would be

You
Let me try to punch line, which is that the reason what you shared was that the reason you rehearse is because you anticipate a fraud conversation

Robby Butler
Right, OK

You
That could go badly for you or for others and

Robby Butler
Right

You
therefore you don't want to just say the first thing that comes out of your mouth or whatever spontaneously thinking you're feeling you need to step back and

Robby Butler
OK

You
reversing create a script and write that is a very

Robby Butler
Yeah, yeah yeah

You
healthy, rational, and normal fear

Robby Butler
Right

You
And what's interesting is that for me this last couple weeks and the basic thesis is the reason we fear something is cause it threatens our survival or our status Or our values I suppose and so the

Robby Butler
No

You
normal rational healthy thing is to listen to that fear And obey it so that we don't do these things that will damage us or others

Robby Butler
Right

You
But the whole concept of denying yourself, taking up your cross, and following Jesus Is the opposite of that? Embrace the very things that everything within you screams don't do that

Robby Butler
Yeah, so OK if I'm serving this properly or at least the thoughts that it's thing in me are fear leads us to filter what we're going to say that We imagine could be harmful to us in someway and freedom is to be ourselves without feeling with With love Unfiltered unfiltered speech that comes out of love, not fear I'm straight

You
I think that's the I think that's a good question. I'm not sure if I accept that as a

Robby Butler
OK

You
conclusion right that's a great question.

Robby Butler
No

You
Right is that so let me try and reframe the question if I may is that it's OK we understand that fear is a filter And that's designed to essentially keep us safe and so the question is what's the alternative for the first point is that the thing that keeps us safe? Which is controversial, but make it explicit is the thing that keeps us from experiencing the abundant life of following Jesus

Robby Butler
I made us repeat the words. The thing that protects us is the thing that keeps us from experiencing the line of life. I missed a word or two I think.

You
So the thing that protects the self

Robby Butler
All right

You
Is the thing that keeps us from following Jesus?

Robby Butler
Whoever ever sees to save his life will lose it OK

You
Right it's a bit of a but like it's a point that these things are good and healthy and natural because they protect ourselves and we don't run out in traffic. We don't drink poison. We don't you'll sit down on a hot stove like fear of damage to self is a rational and healthy thing.

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
But they are the thing that keeps us from really following Jesus and living his abundant life

Robby Butler
When let's see their Just a thought that was the thing that hinders us from following Jesus when we hear him invite us into

You
Pleasure

Robby Butler
something that is challenged by our fear or that our fear wants to protect us from and that if God didn't show up, might indeed us

You
Oh no, it will actually hurt us. It's not like it's a might.

Robby Butler
Well, some fears or imagined I imagine

You
In the Avoiding imaginary fears is just good therapy and clear thinking

Robby Butler
OK

You
CBT cognitive behavioral therapy is all about that right

Robby Butler
Right

You
the precise thing I'm going for is discipleship this place where we deny ourselves take up our cross and follow Jesus

Robby Butler
OK

You
Right, so there is a so let's good let's go build the hurricane right we have fears

Robby Butler
That's not

You
and not all fears are rational not all fears actually involved damage to self glad they could

Robby Butler
And I would thought I would add is that almost all fears are learned except for falling in loud noises

You
That's fine, but we all learned them in some context and there was and and sometimes you know we learned the fear not because there's direct visible danger but their status danger because you don't honor the things that other people are afraid of

Robby Butler
Right

You
Right so there's still a It's not that they are On reasonable or imaginary And let's be the take a moment and see if this is the right he wants to dwell on. I think so. OK let me try some language for this which is that Sophia is about damaged to self.

Robby Butler
All right

You
And Some fears let me use the terms adaptive and maladaptive is that they

Robby Butler
Ha ha

You
actually The fears we have in some context they will actually be adaptive and that they will succeed in protecting the self and some male adaptive and then I'll react in this really unhealthy way that actually damages me because I'm trying to avoid

Robby Butler
Yep

You
something that isn't related to the current context

Robby Butler
OK

You
Right so that's so so from the perspective of protecting and enhancing the self you can look at certain fears as being adaptive or male adaptive. Does that terminology makes sense

Robby Butler
Well, the additional thought that's running through my mind is when he invites us into something That may fear that would normally be adaptive becomes irrelevant or I think of people I think

You
Maladaptive yeah yeah

Robby Butler
Peter Peter walking on the water you know normally it's adaptive not to try and walk on water

You
Right

Robby Butler
but And says come now, OK

You
Yeah, I know you're tracking me so this is the big idea. Is that if the goal is protecting or enhancing the self there's one of the behaviors and actions that are adapted that fit that supports that goal but if the goal is drawing closer to Jesus. There is a specific path of growing closer to Jesus that can only be walked by denying that objective And that's the path of discipleship is what I define it as it's denying

Robby Butler
OK

You
yourself taking up your cross and following Jesus

Robby Butler
Ha ha

You
And OK so that's the day I mean this feels like a fairly obvious biblical thing is remarkably hard for me to articulate in ways that people can hear You know like one of this on the side, but it really struck me which is that when the Bible talks about the flash I've always assumed it meant carnality and that's why he gave us the law Was to avoid that, but you looking at what Paul actually

Robby Butler
OK

You
said is that he thinks striving to obey the law is also a work of the flesh

Robby Butler
Yes

You
So there's two kinds of flesh in the flesh 1.0 is just giving into your base or desires but 2.0 was trying to look good by the law

Robby Butler
OK

You
And a lot of what we call discipleship is actually building up the south to serve/2.0 to escape/1.0

Robby Butler
Send management with a friend called it

You
Right, yeah and that and the big the first point was that in order to actually follow the path of discipleship following the way of Christ footwashing is the FTWC is the acronym I used just cause it's so hard to

Robby Butler
OK

You
Fit the concept into existing words is is precisely about shifting from a world view where we measure things based on how they protection, enhance the cell self protection self-promotion is the Winship phrase into this life of I don't want a good word for it is but this this new life this this into a life of pursuing Christ

Robby Butler
OK

You
let's it is that we want to where we want to glorify the first life is really about the glory of the south Self glorification ride I wanna kill myself alive so that I can do things that will increase my status my sense of self my agency whatever that's really self

Robby Butler
Read

You
glorification, even if it's disguised as a bunch of other things

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
and the alternative life is one of Christ clarification Which results in all sorts of consequences to the self that the self vastly preferred to avoid

Robby Butler
So I think I'm tracking with you but or maybe and I'm drawn toward instead of focus on glorifying Christ on living out of love Or Jamie Winship terms, the abundance world view, and the connection worldview versus the separation and scarce I do think glorifying Christ is very important and central,

You
Delete

Robby Butler
but if If I feel like what he's inviting me into is a focus on loving and living out of love out of being loved, then loving which will glorify him, but doesn't make glorifying him the conscious focus so I don't know how to resolve that

You
Yeah, that being the language is breaking down here so

Robby Butler
OK

You
let's let me take a step back and try to find language at work so I think let me just say connecting to Christ. How does that work for you as a

Robby Butler
Yeah, well out working for me right now has a lot to do with other people and

You
Goal

Robby Butler
so something that includes how I'm relating to others is important to me in terms of making all this practical

You
Told me to take a moment on that

Robby Butler
OK

You
And if you want to, you can ask God what he wants you to know about that too

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
OK, I'm ready when you are

Robby Butler
OK, go ahead

You
So the thing that I thought which matches the thing that I feel Is that you are very focused on trying to connect to others as your current self We've had this discussion before I think

Robby Butler
Well, I'm still struggling with the phrase as my current self

You
Yes, OK

Robby Butler
I because that doesn't resonate as what I'm trying to do but connect with others does so

You
Right and so I mean, it's probably a tautology that if you're trying to connect with other, so this is the OK let me just take a moment that that phrase didn't even make any sense to you

Robby Butler
OK

You
This might take more than a minute, cause I have to process a bunch of things

Robby Butler
OK

You
Let me ask a question do you have any

Robby Butler
I'm sure

You
concept of what it means and this is the judgment is just literally an honest question of what it means to

Robby Butler
Yeah, OK

You
deny yourself

Robby Butler
If I think about it, I can probably come up with something, but I don't that phrase doesn't it's it's clear to me that it's not things You know due to treatment of the body, but I don't have a An unfiltered on thought you know as I say I could

You
You know you don't have a pre-existing concept you can readily access yeah that's totally OK. Good so this is good. Let me just take a moment on that.

Robby Butler
Yeah, that's a good way to say All right

You
Exercise to understand what that means and I have to. Oh sorry OK let me let me just take that as a

Robby Butler
Add biscuit something missed

You
rebuke.

Robby Butler
He said the word before exercise didn't come through

You
Debt spot, which I think means I need to process for

Robby Butler
OK

You
Minute You there

Robby Butler
Yes

You
OK, let me try a different approach since I think God was kindly nudging me away from my prior approach Let me tell you a story to let down so

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
Tuesday night I had a really good fight with my wife and that she did something that bothered me and you know I got kind of triggered and acted out and she called me on it which was good

Robby Butler
Ha ha

You
And what I was able to do was realize that I was Angry at her And but I was able to articulate that not as blaming her or calling her out for her actions or criticizing her actions I was able to get to a place where I'll say like yeah you

Robby Butler
Read

You
did

Robby Butler
I broke up when is that?

You
That

Robby Butler
All that broke up from the point that you said you did and then it broke up

You
Right and so Yeah, hilarious the gaps here. I'm curious which side of the conversation they'll show up on but the point was is I actually was able to affirm what she did as good

Robby Butler
Ha ha

You
And that the real issue is that I don't know how to deal with that and therefore I trim you if I use the language, the phrase I've been thinking about lately is this idea of self-loathing is that we're losing it again

Robby Butler
No, no I got you

You
OK is the idea of I'm angry at myself Because I can't handle that, and therefore I want to blame you for doing the thing that triggers my feelings of self hatred

Robby Butler
OK

You
And the and then I spent the most of the "" fight working to persuade her that I'm not judging what she did I'm not asking her to change I would like it obviously that would be nice, but that's not what I meant because I'm not gonna ask her to do something that I don't know how to do either And that, but what I would invite her to do the thing I would ask her if she is up for it is to just acknowledge attention and let's hold the space that there's things she want which are different than what I want and we don't know how to reconcile those two

Robby Butler
Right

You
And so for me The idea at one level is that my authentic self has these emotions, but I feel angry. I feel hurt. And the And that's important that's true. The danger is that my self-concept is that when I see something that people do that hurts me. I need to defend myself by saying no that's wrong.

Robby Butler
Hey

You
My ability to judge others, and even to judge myself is core to self concept

Robby Butler
All right

You
And the reason I avoid intimacy for lack of a better term is because I rightly perceive it as a threat to that self that self-concept And that this is the thing that I think this is at least a or maybe at least it's a clue towards what Jesus means when he says Deny yourself

Robby Butler
Right

You
Did that make sense?

Robby Butler
I'm so Clue or the connection with what Jesus means when he says deny yourself, I'm just trying to pieces together in my mind

You
Why don't you just take a minute and maybe not even try to think about my words, but ask the spirit what he wants you to know or take from that

Robby Butler
I think it's important for me to absorb how those fit together for you not that I need to brace that but at least to engage well in the conversation and then take that to the Lord, but what he wants me to know from that Cell The So the thing that I actually I think it distracted me in the conversation from hearing fully what you were saying was your description of the good fight with your wife where There was how did you say it difference of perspective that wasn't what you said but I had a good fight with my wife Thursday morning about a difference of perspective and processing how that made us both feel and how do we better navigate where and we're increasingly conscious, and discussing the fact that we just think differently about all kinds of things And we clash over oh I think about something is how she thinks about something and how do we process that in a way that honors both of us and that builds in a mess rather than Destroying it so that's the background context that I'm is shaping how I'm able to absorb what you're saying OK

You
OK, well let's just take a moment on that because more things that I think that will help me and perhaps help you is that when you disengage because you have an emotional reaction of remembering

Robby Butler
Ha ha

You
something let's just acknowledge that and not pretend it didn't

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
happen. No shame it but just acknowledge that is that like OK?

Robby Butler
OK, I'll just listen to summarize. I got distracted from what you were saying by what I'm processing and parallels.

You
OK, so let's just honor that And let's just ask the spirit what's the best way forward do I repeat? Do we press into what you were sharing? Is there something else he wants us to do?

Robby Butler
Yeah, good

You
I'm ready

Robby Butler
OK, yeah I didn't send anything so, what do you have?

You
Right, so I guess the question I had was really is that it's actually a really important questions What is it that you want? And I'll just leave it there

Robby Butler
OK, I was looking for some context what I want in this country

You
Waiting for you for you to just really ask the spirit to reveal your heart. What is the thing that you want?

Robby Butler
Yeah Yeah, well it comes to mind as I'm asking that is to live in the connection, abundance worldview like Jesus Self emptying other focused, unconditional love to borrow all these terms from Jamie Winship And to Connect deeply intimately with people I care about starting with my wife and household, including friends like you and my brother I spoke with earlier this morning. That's what my mind is what I want.

You
Yeah So that's good so let's let's use that as a Progression if you may I know that's my framing of Jamie Winship, but the soul SOUL right is that and I think it mirror is a little bit at least Jesus is called discipleship

Robby Butler
OK

You
Right self emptying the first self emptying to deny yourself The second interestingly, that maps well is Other center it's bearing across you know which is the thing that other people put on you like that did the reality of their needs the world's needs whatever Is the other center part and then the third bed which is fascinating when you put that we tear it up this way this is a little contrived, but it's still I find it. Inspiring is unconditional. Is that most of us follow Jesus quite happily up to a certain point and then we subconsciously know like proving the disciples and you know book of John or season five of the chosen they freak out when they realize where he's going is the place that they can't go?

Robby Butler
Right Yeah

You
And they don't know how to deal with these ulcers of doubt and so that really it is our Conditional This is the point I talk about our self-concept as being the problem, but it's always it's also our our Jesus

Robby Butler
OK

You
concept

Robby Butler
Right

You
Is that this is what I mean by my current self my current self as I understand myself follows Jesus as I understand him, that's just a that seems like just a truism obviously true statement but the point is is that that is the

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
problem that is the reason Christ had to die. That's the reason we have to die is in order to get to that next level of intimacy we have to. Understand, and or at least confront itself enough to deny the self rather than deny, Jesus like Peter

Robby Butler
Right

You
And that only then do we get to see a deeper version of ourselves on a deeper Jesus

Robby Butler
Yeah, if I can, I'm getting text it relate to a tense conversation. We may be having in an hour and a half with my daughter's boyfriend and I need to just have a sense of the time box around how much more time do you have on this call?

You
Wrap up in five minutes I'm near the end of my walk

Robby Butler
Yeah, yeah, OK I don't need to cut it short, but I need in my mind. Needs to know when.

You
Yeah, I need some boundaries. Yeah, it's weird. We have like this is not an unconditional conversation. There

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
is a cross. We have to bear for other people's needs but OK but anyway does that break down? Is that is that love is a fee end of the self

Robby Butler
Right

You
emptying other center unconditional following of Jesus.

Robby Butler
Yeah, that as you repeat that now after I've voiced and been able to set aside the distraction I think I track with that

You
Yeah, so does that help provide some context for this phrase current self?

Robby Butler
Yeah, so I am now absorbing the current self is who I am today following Jesus as I understand him That Jamie talks about I am becoming who I am, and this isn't the fullness of what God made me to be, and is not the fullness of who Jesus is that I understand and following, but this is the path that leads me to the fullness of understanding who he has in the fullness of becoming who I am that he made me to be who he made me to be. Am I

You
Good and there's one more new yeah that's good. I think that captures that really well but there's one more nuance that pops out of this which is I'm not 100% committed to this cause it's just sort of an artifact of this model, but it's certainly suggestive, which is that other centeredness trying to love other people trying to give them what they need trying to relate to them in a healthy way. Is not the solution it's the challenge that forces us to bear across

Robby Butler
OK, I want to really absorb that so trying to relate to others in a healthy way is not the solution is that what you said?

You
Yes It's the challenge

Robby Butler
OK The challenges willing to others in a healthy way or the challenges what

You
It's the need to relate to others in a healthy way is the challenge not and it's trying to do that or actually it is a challenge to try to relate to each other others in a healthy way

Robby Butler
OK got that

You
Right and it's not a solution like doing that will not actually solve a problem

Robby Butler
OK, even even

You
Press

Robby Butler
exceeding it mean it's not the promise even succeeding

You
Well, the thing is that is that too is that we succeed at our measure of that thing

Robby Butler
Ha ha

You
Than that +2 .0 and does nothing to actually bring us closer to Christ or ourselves

Robby Butler
I'll have to ponder that ramp and inquire the Lord more about that through the day but I think I'm tracking with you. We talked earlier about flesh 1.0 simply gratifying the colonel nature/2.0 is trying to live out the law.

You
The law literally says love your neighbor as

Robby Butler
And instead of trying to relate in a healthy way, so you said trying to

You
yourself

Robby Butler
relate others in a healthy way is it doesn't solve the problem what is the problem that

You
Sorry it doesn't address. It doesn't reach the objective. It's probably a better way of putting it.

Robby Butler
So trying to relate other in a healthy way doesn't bring us to relating to others in a healthy way is that thing?

You
Well, actually, you are the best way I can describe it. It does succeed in a narrow sense of loving others as you love yourself.

Robby Butler
Right, OK

You
Right and that's the problem right that's the thing it is precisely That, even if we succeed, it just means we loved our current understanding of the other with our current understanding of ourselves, and the previous point is that our current understanding itself is precisely thing that keeps us from a deeper intimacy with Christ

Robby Butler
So the praise that's popping into my head is that I thought but that trying to be what we are others think we should or do late as we Is not the same as becoming who we are God made us to be that our culture and our self whatever we've learned through our lives develop gives us maybe an idol of what we think. It looks like to relate to other as well but And that's based in or it's shaped by conformity perspective that everyone should be like this we should be kind. We should be gentle. We should be whatever you know comes to mind around how I should be how I should relate to others and that each of us again this is Jamie Winship, and except each of us is a unique person that God created in a unique way and if I have some measure of Asperger's or something else, I don't need to try and get rid of that because it's different from others. I'm called to be who I am and how I relate to others and trust that God is working through that and that's not to be who I am in the self for preserving self protecting self promoting fear Based self, the fake self or whatever but the true self received identity from God that lives out something that's different from every other person is that my connecting or am I on a different

You
I think we're oh yes, and that right so

Robby Butler
OK

You
yes, the external societal expectations of others is one of the things that keeps us from uncovering our true self and living out of our true self that is absolutely true. The point I was making which is

Robby Butler
Right

You
complementary to that is that in my experience, the even deeper thing that keeps me from living that is my self-concept.

Robby Butler
OK, yeah and I was rude. I was relating that the externals influence the self-concept.

You
Right

Robby Butler
Their woman Maybe

You
Yeah, but I think the the specific move that I made which you didn't hear is that when I experience this tension with my wife Is You know, if I understand correctly, he took on the sins of the world on the cross

Robby Butler
Great

You
And so in a nice world, we would both look the way you and your wife do and say OK let's step back and look at this and understand their own biases and whatever And have a rational discussion and that's fantastic but what I feel like was necessary at our stage

Robby Butler
Hello

You
and maybe the level of issue that we had uncovered was that even is that I had to take the whole of the sin upon my cell and they look you're just being you and I appreciate that But this is a problem that I am feeling that I don't know No

Robby Butler
Broke up he broke up after that I don't know and then I missed the next brace

You
judgment, yeah OK As we do now, we're near the end of the time box so the idea in the word that I've been playing with this self loading

Robby Butler
Oh yeah, yeah I heard that how you say that?

You
Right

Robby Butler
Breaking up again, I've lost you

You
Yeah, we're in the weird zone. We're heading home and so the audio is kicking back-and-forth.

Robby Butler
All right, I heard that eat self loathing. I've heard you mention that phrase before I.

You
Yeah, I feel like maybe we just leave that as a hanging thread

Robby Butler
All right

You
And then, if you have a couple minutes, we can try and do our tongue and clothes if I get to a safe audio zone, yeah

Robby Butler
Yeah, I'm not sounding good now. I just woke up to feel an urge. Maybe it's a better to say that your your neat description of how I interacted my wife I'll call my aunt that's so far from the reality but it's very kind.

You
OK OK, that's about how I heard it but maybe it was like I said it wasn't meant to

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
trivialize it in any sense of the word But the point was is that the the Anyway, I guess I'm not supposed to say I'm just not gonna say it so I'll just leave it there when we just You ask the Holy Spirit is there anything that needs to be said it wasn't sad there's anything that needs to be

Robby Butler
Yeah

You
forgiven

Robby Butler
I don't sense anything to forgive. I do love and appreciate you and I'm grateful for our friendship and a chance to talk about these things.

You
Yeah, I feel like I do wanna ask your forgiveness for occasionally trying to articulate truths or trying to convince you of truths that I have not embodied

Robby Butler
OK, I forgive you. I asked

You
Thank you

Robby Butler
I think I would certainly have done that. I am not conscious of having done that today, but I may have I've done that again. Anyway

You
It was there anything more to say

Robby Butler
No, I think I've told you I appreciate you. That's the main thing I'm left with.

You
Appreciate that right let's just spread it out

Robby Butler
All right

You
Thank you for this broken conversation because in the breaking of the bread and the pouring the wine and a couple of suffering this is how we commune with you and so we embrace the brokenness. We embrace the clarity. We embrace the nuance. And just the reality of who we are and even are confusion about who we are, and we just offered this up to you as a living sacrifice, asking you keep inviting us deeper the connection with you through everything in Jesus name I pray

Robby Butler
Amen brother thank you for our wives and for the Opportunity to grow through when I'm trying to follow you and loving them as you love your church and continue to guide us and give me your grace, Jackie and me both your grace as we approach this conversation an hour or so Amen

You
Great God bless you give you peace and when you see Christ, amen bye

Robby Butler
All right have a great day