---
title: "Turtle Island Book Club — Chapters 5–8"
series: "Turtle Island (Erik Fish) book club"
session: 2
participants: ["Ernest Prabhakar (Ernie)", "Robby Butler (The Mission Network)"]
source: "Raw call transcript as provided 2026-09-03; spoken wording preserved; speaker labels and Markdown formatting normalized"
transcript_notes: "Ernie is Ernest Prabhakar (recording from his side). The source ends mid-sentence ('…finding a home and I do have…') — the remainder of the call is absent from the source, not removed."
date: "unstated in source (circa early September 2026; session 2 of the series)"
---

# Turtle Island Book Club — Chapters 5–8

**Speakers:** Ernie (Ernest Prabhakar) and Robby Butler.

## Transcript

**Ernie:** recorded on this side too. Yeah,

**Robby Butler:** Yeah.

**Ernie:** sorry I'm

**Robby Butler:** All

**Ernie:** late. I

**Robby Butler:** right.

**Ernie:** got a, an interesting fair call from our friend Philip Dosa. And he's,

**Robby Butler:** Uh-huh.

**Ernie:** uh, I was asking him about some business direction. Uh, that he was feeling led to NFL God was saying that I have the exact problem he's trying to solve. So it may turn into an actual business deal. So, um,

**Robby Butler:** Oh.

**Ernie:** and it's a whole day of like random things happening like this that, uh, all the areas that I'm failing to do properly, God's throwing people in my path to help me do them. So I'm actually encouraged,

**Robby Butler:** Yeah.

**Ernie:** if a little disoriented.

**Robby Butler:** Great. Yeah, good.

**Ernie:** How are you doing?

**Robby Butler:** Well. Good, let me open with some prayer.

**Ernie:** All right.

**Robby Butler:** Jesus, thank you that you're with us. We, uh, invite you to increase our awareness of that, of your love, of your, uh, care and provision, your power, your wisdom, your presence, um, that, uh, we might,

**Ernie:** Yeah,

**Robby Butler:** uh, more fully

**Ernie:** sorry.

**Robby Butler:** abide in you, bear fruit that lasts for eternity. Uh, I got our unfolding conversations uh, toward, um, whatever

**Ernie:** Yeah.

**Robby Butler:** fruit you desire from them. Thank you that uh, we don't have to make things happen, but we can hear and follow your voice. And, uh, that you will bring forth what you desire through our faith and obedience. So, um, again, we invite you to guide our conversation and thank you for being innocent with us and among us. Amen.

**Ernie:** Amen. So we're at the 2nd section of the Turtle Island book by Eric Fish. Um,

**Robby Butler:** Yep.

**Ernie:** and chapters 5 through 8. You've done this more recently than I have. Can you kind of summarize what you remember about it? This next section.

**Robby Butler:** Um. Well, uh, I'm not, um. I should have brought the

**Ernie:** What's

**Robby Butler:** book along

**Ernie:** my name?

**Robby Butler:** because I also have a physical

**Ernie:** All

**Robby Butler:** book.

**Ernie:** right.

**Robby Butler:** Uh, no, I am, you know, there,

**Ernie:** I

**Robby Butler:** I think

**Ernie:** think.

**Robby Butler:** this is the section where he references, uh, George Patterson, I imagine, uh, the problem of the traditions of men that get in the way of, uh, I know that that are helpful for, uh, some people sometimes and often for us, uh, who have lived with them, but that, uh, Don't export or transfer in a helpful way

**Ernie:** Mm-hmm.

**Robby Butler:** and become barriers to

**Ernie:** Mm-hmm.

**Robby Butler:** the gospel. Uh, and uh,

**Ernie:** Right,

**Robby Butler:** Yeah.

**Ernie:** if I recall correctly, like the 1st, uh, this is oversimplifying, but the 1st photographers are kind of about his encountering, you know, the, the, the, uh, 1st people, uh, and then the, this next section, roughly is him actually consciously doing ministry, like going to this one house that has a reputation for darkness and starting. Uh, Bible discussions there and then other people. Uh, you know, picking up on that and spreading that idea and inviting others into these sort of Jesus circles.

**Robby Butler:** Right. Yeah, and uh, he gave the example of uh, the, uh, imagery of the dandelion that he wrote on a napkin for, I think it

**Ernie:** Mm-hmm.

**Robby Butler:** was Brian to, uh, uh, spread, you know, to continue in ministry without becoming, you know, full-time

**Ernie:** All

**Robby Butler:** minister.

**Ernie:** right, that that tension

**Robby Butler:** And.

**Ernie:** was explicitly surfaced, right? Um,

**Robby Butler:** Right.

**Ernie:** that he was really serious about God and everyone said, oh, you should go become a, Uh, I guess, you know, what people call a full-time minister, which I might call a professional, Christian.

**Robby Butler:** Right. Right.

**Ernie:** Um.

**Robby Butler:** Um. And, uh, just the organic nature of the spread that they got. Um, I mean, I think in the 1st 4 chapters, he introduced the idea of the 4 sacred, 7 sacred ceremonies

**Ernie:** Mm.

**Robby Butler:** that is distilled from the, um, the, um, the teachings of George Patterson, really. Um, and, uh, he continues to reference stars, uh, baptism.

**Ernie:** Mm-hmm.

**Robby Butler:** Um, The Lord's supper. Well, I guess he calls them the sacred water ceremony and the sacred

**Ernie:** Mm-hmm.

**Robby Butler:** meal. And how various people relate.

**Ernie:** Yeah.

**Robby Butler:** So, um, yeah.

**Ernie:** Yeah, and I think the, um, I think one of the stories that stuck in my head. It was about like where he's like a forest ranger or something on the wilderness and, um, starts ministering to one guy and then other people start overhearing and joining and, Uh,

**Robby Butler:** Yeah, it was interesting yesterday. I met with somebody just to get acquainted with them and uh, you know, asked them to tell me their story and part of their story was how they'd gotten suicidal and started out in their mind how they were going to um, kill themselves. But there was this one, he was, his wife had accused him of rape and he'd been divorced amongst all his friends, nobody would take him in.

**Ernie:** Mm.

**Robby Butler:** And his, uh, this one Christian woman invited him, you know, offered him a room, so he

**Ernie:** Thank

**Robby Butler:** stayed

**Ernie:** you.

**Robby Butler:** with her, uh, rented from her, and she was always inviting him to church. And, uh, so the day he figured out, you know, worked through how he was going to kill himself. Um, he just felt like he should, uh, you know, she'd been so kind to him. He should just go to church, wants to, you know, check off that box before he killed himself. And of course, we've already met him there. And then, uh, in this story that Eric tells, this man is just, for whatever, sense he might have had of prompting or leading or just doing something, read Matthew 3 and four. I think it was allowed to a quiet man who was sitting next to him. And the man said, I was just preparing to kill myself and said, God, this morning, you know, you need to give me a sign and you reading to me is the sign. And, uh, just how present and caring the Lord, uh, often is or can be in those kinds of situations.

**Ernie:** Yeah, and the, um, You want him taking this job and being there at that point in time to, in a somewhat awkward way, decide,

**Robby Butler:** Yeah.

**Ernie:** you know, being willing to expose himself by, Praying out loud, and reading the Bible out loud. And then I think when he the man asked him a question, he gave sort of a miniature gospel presentation. You know,

**Robby Butler:** Right.

**Ernie:** uh, and then hearing this man's backstory that he was on the edge. And

**Robby Butler:** Yeah.

**Ernie:** uh, God met him at that, um, That moment.

**Robby Butler:** Yeah, in the beginning of that chapter, um, he went into this place that most Christians seem to be avoiding. So all the invitations from, you know, to attend church or Bible studies posted on the wall. Uh, and wondered aloud, and this is, I think, again, might be from George Patterson or from at least this stream of disciple making movements. Why do we invite people where we're comfortable, uh, rather than where they're comfortable. And, uh, the idea of going and then he was just there consistently with a sense of God bleeding. And finally, somebody asked him what he was doing there, and when he was prompted, he had a spontaneous explanation of being there to set the captain free and healed the broken hearted, which he hadn't prepared, but came out. And the person who asked him said, that's amazing. Would you teach a class on spiritual vision quest or whatever,

**Ernie:** Right,

**Robby Butler:** our

**Ernie:** yeah. The,

**Robby Butler:** teacher. Right.

**Ernie:** the, the adopting the local custom of Vision Quest. Uh,

**Robby Butler:** Yeah.

**Ernie:** yeah.

**Robby Butler:** So, So it, you know, it strikes me that, uh, you didn't have a particular strategy full formed. I'm gonna go here and I'm gonna, you know, this is how it's going to work out. It was hmm. I see this is a dark place. I sense maybe God wants me to be there. And as I'm there, maybe that'll be further, you know, leading, that will lead to something. Uh, and it's all a surprise and a delight along the way and it's kind of scary and uncertain. Um, and uh,

**Ernie:** That's

**Robby Butler:** that seems

**Ernie:** good.

**Robby Butler:** to be an overarching. You know, uh, his experience. I think it was the previous 4 chapters where the men wanted to go and pray at the, uh, pray over the football team members who were injured.

**Ernie:** Mm-hmm.

**Robby Butler:** Um, you know, Eric was a little, uh, that seems a little over reach to put God on the spot like that. He didn't say that, but that was the vibe I got from the description. Um, and then, uh, in these chapters that we're reading now, the idea of not pushing people to conform to the way we think they should act in the timing, we think they should follow, like when the, uh, man. In fact, I think it might have been the same man, who, uh, had, um, his girlfriend moved in with

**Ernie:** Mm-hmm.

**Robby Butler:** him, that he was following Jesus, and Eric's impulse was to tell him why and how that was

**Ernie:** Mm-hmm.

**Robby Butler:** wrong. And instead he opened the scripture with them and just discipled them together and let the Lord bring them to a place of, you know.

**Ernie:** Marriage, much later, as I recall, like it wasn't

**Robby Butler:** Yeah,

**Ernie:** like

**Robby Butler:** yeah.

**Ernie:** a like week or two, it was like, you know, they just continued as they were. And then

**Robby Butler:** Yeah,

**Ernie:** God

**Robby Butler:** and

**Ernie:** worked through

**Robby Butler:** some.

**Ernie:** that. Yeah.

**Robby Butler:** Yeah, and similar was the man who he felt, she didn't get baptized and the man wanted to wait until the family weekend at the college where he had 43 family members together and it became a. community thing.

**Ernie:** Yeah.

**Robby Butler:** And so, uh, these, um, you know, being patient and waiting for the Lord to move. Uh, rather than trying to make things happen,

**Ernie:** Mm.

**Robby Butler:** which is a good, uh, prompt as Jackie and I are working through some things at home that I want to, you know, reduce the time because it's painful.

**Ernie:** Mm.

**Robby Butler:** Uh, in the pro, you know. But, uh, we you and I have talked about holding tension, you know, allowing attention.

**Ernie:** Yeah.

**Robby Butler:** to exist.

**Ernie:** Yeah, so let me just name a couple of tensions that I'm noticing. We don't have to go any deeper but I just want to at least acknowledge them. What is, I feel like uh, that question, you know, why do we invite people? Where we're comfortable, so going to where they're comfortable, uh, was only used rhetorically. And it's like, I actually would be interested in the answer to that question. Uh, because there is a why. And it's worth understanding

**Robby Butler:** Yeah.

**Ernie:** it. Um, maybe not now, but it's certainly a tension I feel of, I would like to understand that dynamic better rather than just, uh, dismiss it. And secondly, um, I noticed that the, the, I perceive, which may not be reality, but my perception is a tension between the, let's just listen to what God is doing and not have a strategy. Versus my understanding of your professional career is all about having a strategy for completing world evangelism. And

**Robby Butler:** Uh-huh.

**Ernie:** like, this is the strategy. This is the plans, these are the details. And so, um, my perception is there's attention there. I don't know if you feel it or see it. But I just wanted to acknowledge that my my perception.

**Robby Butler:** Yeah, well, not as an attention, but uh, I can, I think I see what you're uh, asking, I could try and respond if you'd like to

**Ernie:** If

**Robby Butler:** either one or.

**Ernie:** this is a good time and there's nothing else we want to talk about, we can go there, sure. Yeah,

**Robby Butler:** Um, yeah,

**Ernie:** I don't

**Robby Butler:** well,

**Ernie:** know.

**Robby Butler:** to me the answer of why we invite people where we're comfortable and uh, comparison whether they are, is seems obvious because we're comfortable there. Uh, because we're in control because we can, um, you know, try and, uh, well, I think maybe that's the key point, we, we have a feeling, uh, we, we, we feel a need to feel and control. of how things are going and how they're going to go. And um, Um, but I think that's rooted in uh, lack of experience and a lack of confidence in the Lord taking care of the outcomes. Um, and I, I see faith as leaving the outcomes in the Lord's hand and uh, simply responding to what we sense he's leading or saying or uh, directing however you want to frame that. Um, That's the 1st part why we invite people to where we're comfortable. Does that resonate? Do you want to

**Ernie:** I

**Robby Butler:** go further with that?

**Ernie:** mean, that feels like it's begging the question. It's like, well, I framed the question this way and therefore that's the answer. It doesn't seem to, and so let me just unpack that a little bit to make sure I'm hearing you, is that inviting

**Robby Butler:** Mhm.

**Ernie:** them to where we're comfortable is how we maintain control. Uh, I think you lost me a bit because inviting someone doesn't control the outcome, right? It still like, hey, I'm going to follow God's prompting to invite this person to church and the outcome of whether they show up is up to him. So I feel like at least the way you explained it, I didn't quite catch a explanatory difference.

**Robby Butler:** Um, well, I think more about controlling the environment in a known way to try and achieve what we hope for, you know, to be able to preach a sermon and have a response and, um, knowing that, you know, their response is up to them, that or the Holy Spirit or the combination. Uh,

**Ernie:** Right.

**Robby Butler:** But,

**Ernie:** Okay,

**Robby Butler:** uh,

**Ernie:** so I think I, the, you lost me a little bit because the, the, there's 2 different dynamics. Uh,

**Robby Butler:** Um.

**Ernie:** that I think it's worth teasing out at least. One is, if you're the pastor of a church, you tell people your members to go and invite people to church. Um,

**Robby Butler:** Right.

**Ernie:** and you may also tell them to go and share the gospel with their neighbors. Um, And so, uh, but there's certainly, uh, uh, some uh, people start with invites them to church. Some people start with go and build relationships with your friends and neighbors and understand with them so that you can eventually invite them to church. So, I think that's worth understanding that dynamical context. And then, secondly, there's people who then, you know, in response to that do things like, he was talking about in the book where they go and put up posters and say, hey, uh, we're having a event at church, please come. Um,

**Robby Butler:** Oh.

**Ernie:** and I don't know whether putting up a sign saying, hey, we're having a Bible study in the lobby would be the same or different than that. Um, and, you know, if Eric's, and, um, Um, But, So, um, and I guess I got a little lost in this maybe my lack of coffee. Um, what you saw as the alternative and how it's different.

**Robby Butler:** Um, So the, So the 1st the,

**Ernie:** Awesome.

**Robby Butler:** I think, I know a very few churches that actually train people. I mean, maybe, maybe they're, I expect there are many churches that encourage their people to witness. Um, there's all very few churches I've run across that actually train their people in an effective way of caring that fits our culture. Um, there is one extraordinary case

**Ernie:** All

**Robby Butler:** in

**Ernie:** right.

**Robby Butler:** Florida, blah, blah, blah.

**Ernie:** Okay.

**Robby Butler:** Permission here. Um, but

**Ernie:** Sorry,

**Robby Butler:** yeah, and typically,

**Ernie:** I lost the sentence there that trained their people to...

**Robby Butler:** To

**Ernie:** No, no,

**Robby Butler:** share

**Ernie:** no.

**Robby Butler:** their faith effectively to witness, to lead others to, toward a decision to follow Jesus.

**Ernie:** Okay, and that is an observation. How does that connect to everything else we've been discussing?

**Robby Butler:** Well, you were talking about churches that, uh, and tell people to invite others to church. That seems to me to be, you know, the very dominant 90, 95%. Um, There's some churches that may say, you know, you need to be sharing your faith witnessing. Uh, there are very few that I've run across. I can think of 2 examples in my life that actually train members in a practical way to do that, that seems to bear fruit.

**Ernie:** Okay,

**Robby Butler:** Um,

**Ernie:** so, so, so,

**Robby Butler:** so.

**Ernie:** okay, so let me pause for a moment, make sure I'm following you. So one model is the church telling people to invite people to church directly. Uh, a secondary model is telling people to build friendships and connections and relations with their with their neighbors so that they can invite them to church, you know, trying

**Robby Butler:** Yeah,

**Ernie:** to at

**Robby Butler:** right.

**Ernie:** least encouraging something difference. And then there's a 3rd model of training people in evangelism and sharing their faith. so that they become Christians, with the hope that they will end up joining the church later.

**Robby Butler:** Yeah, typically the church's agenda is for people to join the church, not to just follow Jesus, wherever that might unfold.

**Ernie:** So

**Robby Butler:** Um,

**Ernie:** let's pause on

**Robby Butler:** and.

**Ernie:** that for a moment so that even the sort of better case scenario of actually training people in evangelism is still within this, for lack of a better term, extractional paradigm of getting them into a church.

**Robby Butler:** Yeah, unless the church has adopted a different mentality. I, you know, there is a church in Texas that I can think of, and there are, you know, this this idea of disciple making movements. It continues to percolate with this awareness that uh, the goal is not to simply draw people to what I'm doing, but to, um, plant seeds that can grow into, uh, or what, however, to mix the metaphors, to recognize their sheep of other folds. that Jesus is also wanting to work among

**Ernie:** Right,

**Robby Butler:** them.

**Ernie:** so let's, um, Uh, let me see if I can. Summarize what you're saying in answer to the question of like, why don't we invite people to the place we're comfortable? Is it

**Robby Butler:** Mm-hmm.

**Ernie:** feels like the fundamental paradigm shift is God is in here in the church inside our community. We want you to come experience him with us. Versus God

**Robby Butler:** Right.

**Ernie:** is out there doing a work in the world, and we want to find where he's doing it, and, um, Um, cultivate is the word that comes to mind. Cultivate

**Robby Butler:** Hmm.

**Ernie:** the thing that God is already doing out in the world and other people rather than congregate around where he's already done something in the past.

**Robby Butler:** Yeah.

**Ernie:** Okay.

**Robby Butler:** Like

**Ernie:** And

**Robby Butler:** that.

**Ernie:** so the distinction is between congregation versus cultivation. And the why in this model is, we just see God, or maybe have seen God, in in the congregational aspect, um, and we have not seen, And have not even heard, that there was an option that there is this cultiv, that there's this cultivational alternative. Um, that could be the thing that we are both stepping into and inviting other people into.

**Robby Butler:** Right. And uh, you know, part of it is uh, and maybe it's the professionalism of the

**Ernie:** Mhm.

**Robby Butler:** clergy, the

**Ernie:** Mm-hmm.

**Robby Butler:** idea that we're the ones that are skilled at presenting the gospel in a way that will have an impact. And so the natural or the approach should be bring people here to receive the church's ministry rather than engaging with Jesus there where, uh, you're not equipped. You're not, uh, you know, you don't have the seminary training or whatever. However, it might be perceived.

**Ernie:** All right,

**Robby Butler:** Maybe

**Ernie:** there's a lot of

**Robby Butler:** that's.

**Ernie:** layers of why behind that. Um,

**Robby Butler:** Yep.

**Ernie:** the the cheap answer is this is never real, this is not primarily about encountering priced and becoming a disciple, it's about enrolling people in Christendom, which includes

**Robby Butler:** Mhm.

**Ernie:** Christ and is centered on historical Jesus. But the,

**Robby Butler:** Right.

**Ernie:** you know, successes, they pray a prayer, they show up at church, they tie, they live a moral life. That's that's considered wild success. And

**Robby Butler:** Yeah.

**Ernie:** actually being a disciple of Jesus is uh, not well defined or a success criteria.

**Robby Butler:** Right.

**Ernie:** Um, That'd

**Robby Butler:** So, Yeah, this

**Ernie:** be overly

**Robby Butler:** ain't

**Ernie:** cheap, but

**Robby Butler:** not.

**Ernie:** that's a, It's cheap to say and maybe a bit of a cheap shot, but it's a useful. Um, at least for me, that's the why is that all we know, the reason that people do this is that all they know of Christ is Christendom, and therefore the goal is to get people to leave the world and enter Christendom.

**Robby Butler:** Yeah, I, you know, the, I don't know, like, what comes to mind is that we find a sense of reassurance when that we're on the right path when we can persuade other people to aim for the same behavior that we're aiming for. Um, that we experience a sense of affirmation in that winning people. Uh, and that that is not, um, and we, and we tend to assume that, that corresponds with what it means to follow Jesus. Um,

**Ernie:** Yeah, no, this feels yeah. Yeah, I think that's, uh, let me, um, this, it's the right segue. Let me just take a moment and digest what I heard so that we, I can clear the plate for the next question. That, um, there's a, solid cognitive dynamic, all they've ever seen and known is people coming to Christ by joining Christendom. They're a, Sociological or psychological, there's a, there's a psychological dynamic of I feel better when people are part of my group and people validate my worldview and my approach, almost a tribalistic impulse. Um, Interesting. And then there's a, okay, there's a, an empirical bias of, I can, this is what I can see as the correlates of following Christ. And therefore, when I see other people doing it. Uh, I feel better about myself. I feel better about them. Um, And then there's, I guess, also a theological, then like this group is the one, you know, we're the ones who actually understand Jesus, and it's important that you join us because we have the correct understanding of Jesus. So those are all different dynamics that are self-reinforcing. Um, The, uh, the other thing I think that's worth mentioning is that there is also a uh, deferential aspect of it. Is that what, if I'm in, if I'm inviting people into a pre-existing context, then someone else owns that context, sewers that context, maintains it. And therefore, that is not my responsibility. I just have to ask, uh, tell you about this, this thing that someone else owns and bring them there. And then it's like the pastor's job to preach to them. And the church's job to disciples them. Whereas if you are doing the, I guess incarnational alternative, like, it's just you on the spot, you're responsible for hearing God, you're responsible for making these crazy judgment calls about, are these people living in sin? Uh, and uh, it's a very exposed. Uh, uh, role. Uh, Well, okay, let me make a more precise statement then, right? Because I don't like the word responsibility either. Is that if I am acting as an agent, uh, of an organization, Then my, the authority I'm acting on is delegated from another human entity. Whereas if I'm stepping out, you know, like Eric Fisher told story is, of, you know, where he'd been sort of uh, ejected from his church community and finding a home and I do have...